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JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines

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I am looking at either an older model Juki 750/760 or an old... - Mar 08, 2018 by Reckless  

#79940

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 8 March, 2018

I am looking at either an older model Juki 750/760 or an older model Universal Instruments GSM (flexhead). I need something very reliable and repeatable. I am looking for a no hassle machine. The more reliable and repeatable it is the better. I have 99 problems and I don't want SMT machine to be one.

Which one would you prefer and why? New machine is not possible. Needs to be an older, very reliable and easy to maintain machine. So far these are the two brands I have come across. UIC is pretty popular in Chicago, Juki more on the coasts.

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#79941

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 8 March, 2018

Both of these are very old platforms. I used them both in the past and they are both good machines. The question is how are you planning to keep them going? Spare parts availability? Knowledge to fix them? Calibrate them?Does manufacturer support them? If yes, what would that cost you? I remember for GSM there was a registration fee of several thousands.

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#79942

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 8 March, 2018

If you buy old equipment like these I would recommend buying from one of the companies that advertise here. Make sure it's one that has staff to support you. Some will say they have staff but they actually use contractors. That's not always bad but that means you may not get responses quickly.

Jerry

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#79943

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 8 March, 2018

Thanks, I do plan on buying a refurbished unit from a reputable company who are experts in their machines and provide excellent service.

Parts will get spare parts from supplier first and then ebay.

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#79945

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 9 March, 2018

Which machine did you like more and recommend?

My feeling is the Juki is simpler and easier by design thus making it easier to maintain.

The GSM is very robust, highly over engineered making it more costly to keep going. Harder to work on for someone who is no experience with Pick and Place machines. I call the GSM the MONSTER as it is very big and heavy.

The 750 is a highly sought out machine so I think it will hold value better. The GSMs seem like no one wants them anymore.

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dwl

#79946

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 9 March, 2018

You want 1)Used 2)dirt cheap 3)no hassle. Item 3 is mutually exclusive to items 1 and 2...

On a more serious note, both Juki and UIC make excellent equipment which is why there are so many dinosaurs still in the field. There are plenty of people in the US that are familiar with both platforms, so I wouldn't worry about what's popular on the coasts vs the mid west.

UIC maintains an excellent online database of technical bulletins and schematics for everything they ever sold which makes DYI diagnosis/repair easier if you have the technical abilities. I would agree that GSMs are mechanically complex and over engineered.

I would contact Broome Engineering, UICs used equipment division to look at used machines with a factory warranty. and at the very least get an idea of what replacement parts can cost. Spoiler: They can be brutally expensive.

http://www.uic.com/solutions/remanufactured-equipment/

I've never had to support used Juki equipment, so I can't give you much detail there.

From the information you've shared in your other threads, I respectfully suggest that your expectations are not in league with your budget. My suggestion would be to contact a few equipment suppliers and have them help you do a cost benefit analysis between buying factory supported used/refurbished equipment and contract manufacturing. Even if you have no intention of buying something, it will be very educational for you.

In my past at a Contract manufacture I watched several companies try to insource production on a shoe string budget and fail miserably. I've also seen it done successfully. The difference being the successful ones did their homework, developed the expertise and kept their expatiations realistic.

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#79949

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 9 March, 2018

Most likely I am doubling the budget mostly because of the feeders.

I am leaning to Juke 750/760. Most likely will end up buying 2 of them once we are fully up and running and understanding everything. We are looking for a good old dinosaur who won't give us too much headache. Pricing for the GSM components is scaring me as well. I did talk to Broome but they won't put a warranty on a GSM and they were scaring that certain parts are extremely expensive. The vision components of the last year can run $6,000 new and $4500 used.

I would like to hear about bad experiences with Juke 750/750. The only issue I am aware of is having to clean the laser head often. Heads run $1300 rebuilt which is one of the most expensive components.

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#79950

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 9 March, 2018

Their is a large aftermarket support system for Juki parts, feeders etc in China. You can buy aftermarket Juki placement heads, nozzles, feeders at a fraction of the price you had to pay when you bought these machines new. Just make sure to exclude Juki sewing machines when you do your web searches.

sarason

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#80162

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 5 April, 2018

Hi, please let me know if you are looking for part list for JUKI KE750/760, FS750 or FM760.

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Rob

#80167

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 5 April, 2018

Lasers can go quite often, but if you are lucky and not in a great hurry you can get them refurbished dirt cheap. If you have a good 750/760 that has been well maintained it should run for a long time, but if it has not been loved you can end up paying 10's of thousands on cards, cables, sensors, lasers, etc. same as anything else.

Back in the depths of time I also had GSMs, and they were very good, but were more complex than the Jukis. Should be some keenly priced GSM2's around at the moment as there are a fair few on the market. As previously mentioned, find a good partner to sell, train and maintain.

BTW, if you think the GSM is a beast you haven't seen a Fuji or Panasonic old school chipshooter....15ft long and 13,000 pounds+ in weight.

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#80168

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 5 April, 2018

In my experience Chinese aftermarket parts for Juki's are substandard.

They are very good at making things look the same but the materials and tolerances are unacceptable.

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#80170

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 5 April, 2018

What is the difference KE760 and FM760?

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#80171

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 5 April, 2018

I am not finding any local partner to sell, setup and train. Everyone increases price of machine by an extra $10k. I can understand $2-3k

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Rob

#80173

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 6 April, 2018

@ Sr.Tech, Most of our Chinese spares are Juki & Yamaha original & still bagged, just much cheaper. They wouldn't sell machines in China if all the spares and consumables were at European mark ups.

Nozzle wise the Juki 750 & 760 copies are not 100% as good but still work, whereas the 2000 series, and all Yamaha ones are spot on. And for around $12 each. We also get custom designed gripper nozzles, LED nozzles, and connector nozzles. Feeder wise, we have been buying new copies for around 6 years and they are spot on, including for 01005.

There are certain copy parts that are not as good, such as Nozzle holders, spline shafts etc, but you get a feel after a while. Also, when spares are no longer available - such as 750 & 760 parts, then paying a few hundred dollars for a used card to get the machine back up and running again is sometimes the only option.

Also as in anywhere not all suppliers are good or trustworthy.

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Rob

#80174

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 6 April, 2018

@ Reckless,

We installed one of our old GSM1's in a customer as a favour around 15 or 16 years ago, to use as a prototype machine.

We spent 5 days there initially, 1 day set up, levelling and sorting out air and power issues, and 4 days teaching them to use the GSM, and then a couple of follow up days as they were learning, and a fair few emails and phone calls. I can see where the $10K would come in.

The only machine I have ever just picked up in a few hours, or seen anyone do the same was a TWS Automation Quadra. But that makes a 760 look like a Dodge Charger. Which it isn't. It's more like a Reliant Robin.

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#80175

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 6 April, 2018

Do you think this could be taught remotely through skype? I really don't have the budget for $10k in training but can afford $1k.

We hope to sort out leveling, power, air issues ourselves. GSMs look highly complex. Is it possible they take much more of a learning curve? I used to be a DOS expert as a kid 20+ years ago.

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Rob

#80176

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 6 April, 2018

Hi Reckless,

No, I don't think it's a $1K job, just for the hours needed. You still need to learn the absolute basics, such as navigating the menus, creating a program, nozzle changing, identifying parts with the laser and camera, Pick timers, z heights, pick position adjustment, troubleshooting etc.

If the machines you are looking at are installed somewhere else at the moment, can you do basically a weeks internment there to get a feel?

Rob.

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#80253

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 17 April, 2018

Hi Reckless

Have you decided between the Juki Machine or GSM? If you went with the GSM there is one thing in the VME rack that you should check at least once a year.

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#80256

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 17 April, 2018

I got the Juki 760 Machine. Trying to install it and figure things out now.

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#80257

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 17 April, 2018

Unfortunately they were decommissioned a few months ago and the machines were put in storage. I had them shipped and have received them. They look cosmetically to be in good condition. We are hooking power/air into them now. Came with a compressor.

Trying to find someone locally who can help with training.

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#80584

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 21 June, 2018

I just bought this GSM for $1500: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYExLDwlJLc&feature=youtu.be

It has 1 flexjet head and OS2.

I need to buy 15 8x2mm feeders and some 12mm. Do I buy pneumatic or electric? My service tech says electric is a waste of money. Do I bother with multipitch feeders? I already have 12 8x4mm feeders and 1 16mm feeder.

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#80585

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 21 June, 2018

Hi Sir, I think pneumatic is cost effective. but you will find there are so many problem with it in the problem if the condition of the feeder is not very good. So, once you decide to buy the pneumatic feeder, you'd better buy them from you local market.

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#80587

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 21 June, 2018

What about chinese replica pneumatic feeders?

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#80588

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 21 June, 2018

I'd be tempted to say you buy whatever is most consistent with what you paid for the rest of the machine.... And if you can source Chinese copies& they aren't expensive it can't hurt to try a few.

More generally (I don't know how these particluar machines handle pitch) different machines do it in different ways and it also depends on how well you can anticipate what parts you might be wanting to place. For example 0402 is typically 2mm pitch, some machines require you to have dedicated 2mm index feeders for that, some do a double pick for every 4mm index, some will index the feeder based on the component loaded and some (modern Juki electronic feeders) require you to set the pitch on the feeder itself. To my knowledge every multi pitch feeder is electronic and they undoubtedly cost more.

For me the ultimate feeder is multi pitch, electronic and "intelligent". Intelligent feeders have an electronic ID that tells the machine what kind of feeder it is and this means the machine then knows where that feeder is loaded & what with & any pick offsets even if it is moved; some manufacturers store all that on the feeder itself and some will store most of it on the machine/database.

However intelligent electronics feeders are most useful to those of us who change loadouts a lot, if you are more likely to built a small number of products and just leave the components in the feeders all the time you'll never see the need or advantage.

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#80604

JUKI vs UIC Pick N Place Machines | 26 June, 2018

This video does not show FlexJet head, It is Flex head with 4 spindle. We have about 5 GSM with flex and FlexJet head with OS/2 and 4 with Windows2K. If you need any help, I will be glad to help you.

Tushar

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