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Faster Than Lightning!

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In search of my ultimate chip shooter I need a machine faste... - Apr 30, 2019 by Reckless  

#82466

Faster Than Lightning! | 30 April, 2019

In search of my ultimate chip shooter I need a machine faster than 2 universal instruments lightning heads. I am aware Fuji has a turret head and Yamaha. Are they as reliable/fast as the lightning head? Who else makes turret heads?

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#82470

Faster Than Lightning! | 30 April, 2019

You are a very confusing person, one minute you want to buy some cheap piece of crap and speed isn't all that important and now you want a Lambo!

Different use cases will make different machines faster if optimised. Or for the rest of us they average out about the same, a modern lightning head headlines around 35Kcph or rather less IPC.

Hanwha make a superfast machine in the Excen Pro.

Europlacers Atom3&4 should both give 2 lightning heads a run for their money and the turret portion of the Atom3 would give you a very very flexible machine, but you won't find one of them cheap or even 2nd user. (Notice here they dropped turrets to add speed)

ASM (SiPlace) obviously do high speed chipshooters that tend to go into very busy factories, used units tend to have a lot of hours on the clock.

However, more to the point all these machines go into volume factories who rely on them working.

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#82472

Faster Than Lightning! | 30 April, 2019

That was a year ago, got my feet wet now and looking for something nicer but preferrably not $400k.

I'm just trying to learn more about the turret technology and see if there is anything for a small tiny factory being run by a single operator/technician. The lightning machine seems well suited for that application. Want to know if there is any other machine worth looking into even though its a bit slow. I don't know much about the Europlacer and Siplace units and have seen some youtube videos of the Hanwha.

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#82474

Faster Than Lightning! | 30 April, 2019

I was at the show in San Diego. The Hanwah HM520 is wicked fast and half the price of the other major manufactures. Full disclosure we own Samsung/Hanwha but not that model.

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#82476

Faster Than Lightning! | 30 April, 2019

That's my kind of manufacturer, twice the work for half the price! It's on the list.

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#82477

Faster Than Lightning! | 1 May, 2019

Depending on what you are doing, feeder cost usually outweighs the price of the pick and place machines.

I have worked with almost all of the Fuji CP turret machines. I haven't touched any of the new stuff but I have seen it in person and it is impressive.

There are some limitations with turret style machines.Parts size and how fast you can rotate the turret without effecting placement.

If you want a tank that will smoke down parts for cheap, go find yourself a CP642. Not CP643. 643's have a pain in the butt board loading system.

I just scrapped a CP643 with low hours. I couldn't give it away, so keep that in mind when talking to the snakes. I would say 15-20K tops with a feeder assortment and machine in excellent condition.

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#82483

Faster Than Lightning! | 3 May, 2019

Those things are big tho, the whole moving table concept seems to be on the way out, theres a few who move it in one axis (MyCronic, Mimot?) but everything else is cartesian gantry and with a few notable exceptions quite narrow and feeder dense.

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#82484

Faster Than Lightning! | 3 May, 2019

I was hoping for more than 40k cph. I don't need too many feeders so brand is not a huge concern. Reliable, no headache operation is higher importance. I'm starting to look at newer machines but do like buying once and getting extended life out of it (more than what I paid).

I considered cp machines in the past but they are ginourmous machines. I am always suprised how people like them so much.

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#82485

Faster Than Lightning! | 3 May, 2019

You sound like me lol. Champagne taste on a beer budget.

People like the CP's because they are work horses that rarely break. You do however need a technician that isn't a goof-daddy to keep her tuned.

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#82486

Faster Than Lightning! | 3 May, 2019

Normally I am Champagne taste on beer budget. But I am beginning to want a no nonsense pick and place machine and willing to pay for it. But I feel there is a disparity as some machines run ~$100k (universal/hanwa) and others run ~$400k (Yamaha/Fuji). Not sure what the difference is.

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#82535

Faster Than Lightning! | 11 May, 2019

I heard Hanwha cph figures are the extremely overrated. I was told to divide their numbers by 3 to get real world speeds. They list HM520 at 80k so dividing it by 3 it will only be 26k. That doesn't sound that fast to me especially for 2 turret heads. Does this seem right?

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#82538

Faster Than Lightning! | 13 May, 2019

All these generalizations are non sense.

What real cph you will receive depend on many factors:

- paths optimization - what number of feeders are used - what number of nozzle changes has your job - how fast is the recognition for small and big parts and how many of these you have in your job - libraries - how fast you can change your feeders

etc. etc.

This is why these phony ISO ratings are made, they show what is the maxmum rate you will theoretically achieve.

It's like the car gas MPG consumption quotes - they quote it for lightest car from this model, with special tyres, no load and 50 kg driver. You will never get close to these MPG rates when you drive same car daily.

ISO will not give you real CPHs, but at least give you base for kind-of comparison, also each machine has technical sheet where recognition speed for different parts are written i.e. BGA etc. so you can do your math also.

The achievable CPH depends very much of your knowledge of how machine works and how to optimize the job. It doesn't happen with the default machine settings, and in most of the cases these default "optimizers" are not optimal.

On some jobs you could achieve up to 70% of the quoted speed (like matrix LED lighting where you have lot of small LEDs to be placed on the boards). On other jobs you may not be able to achieve even 40% of the quoted ISO speed (big precise components which require slow motion of the head).

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#82543

Faster Than Lightning! | 13 May, 2019

Thank you for your response. I'm new to SMT so I am constantly learning. Unfortunately have not come across books that go in detail about these issues (if I ever get time I might write one). I have an older universal gi-14d (7 spindle head, dual gantry) getting less than 20% rated speed. We only have 1 nozzle changeover, plenty of good gold feeders. I did use the default optimization but placed zones so smaller 0402 stuff goes first so it doesn't hit bigger parts. My boards are 50% 0402 and all simple chips. Feeders are nearly spot on with 2000 parts per array with only a handful of mispicks.

I figured newer software might take out some of the guess work with optimization. All the headaches do have me wanting a newer, updated simpler to setup machine. No matter what I had to go through my initial learning curve. I learned alot in the process. Going forward I only want turret heads but haven't figured out which one is my dream Ferrari.

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#82573

Faster Than Lightning! | 15 May, 2019

All manufactures ratings on machines are way over blown. I am not shilling for Hanwha we have there equipment it runs good our SM471 averages 36k to 42k. there is so much that goes into how fast a machine runs such as board design type of parts, panel size etc. We have other equipment none of it run close to the Manufacture specs. one of our machines runs about 20 % faster than the Hanwha. But at the end of the month the Hanwha/samsung places more parts. because the faster machine has more down time for maintenance & break downs. Also the faster machine take a lot longer to train operators. I have learned the hard way that just looking at speed rating for any machine does not come close to telling the whole story.

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#82582

Faster Than Lightning! | 16 May, 2019

From my experience with our two Hanwha machines, they are very reliable. In the time (7 and 3 years) we had them, there haven't been any issues with machines themselves. Only issue that came up were with some of the feeders.

What you have to consider is remote monitoring. They don't really comunicate well with storage towers and monitoring systems without their proprietary software. If you have any plans to implement them, consider your options. Otherwise, they are excelent machines.

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#82583

Faster Than Lightning! | 16 May, 2019

You are lucky, out of 4 machines we have 2 failed withing first year. One has Panasonic X-axe servo driver burned. The other machine has the ASIC board burned. Nothing that can't be repaired, but still annoying as we had to wait 1 month for replacements.

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#82611

Faster Than Lightning! | 22 May, 2019

Hi,

from what you are saying I am not sure you need turret head. One operator means you will prefer a machine that has feeders on the front only. Remember that the machine speed has nothing to do with the number of boards you are going to produce. Reliable machine with good feeders and easy to operate with will build more boards than the fast machine that requires more handling. I would consider Mycronic models and Europlacer models that might fit better your manufacturing. Fuji platform with modules is great too, but probably way more expensive.

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#82615

Faster Than Lightning! | 22 May, 2019

I fully agree on reliable machine being better. Trying to understand which machines are more reliable has been an issue. Mychronic and europlacers dont seem that popular in US. I am not requiring turrets but I have a need for reliable speed on 0402.

I was told yesterday that one of the largest ems providers in midwest had bad luck with fuji nxts due to reliability and converting to newer Yamaha machines.

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#82616

Faster Than Lightning! | 22 May, 2019

I did work with many of the platforms out there and many of them great platforms. However, for one operator running it a Mycronic line can do miracles compared to ASM or Universal line. It is all a matter of product line, changeover, flexibility and volume. We can keep scratching our tongues here, but without detail on your needs is hard to advise you. I will pick different equipment based on the initial conditions.....

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#82618

Faster Than Lightning! | 22 May, 2019

No changeovers, just refilling reels

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#82619

Faster Than Lightning! | 22 May, 2019

If the setup is not huge, I would say get the ASM. They have great setup optimizer. You can have multiple reels if the same parts on the setup and have all the setup in front of the machine, so your operator don't have to circle around all the time. Very reliable and intelligent as well. Based on the speed that you need, ASM can go crazy with dial gantry and 20 nozzle turret heads - I think they can install 4 independent heads into one machine. Quite, low maintenance, great intelligent feeder quality. Plus will give you flexibility in future if you need it.

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