Surface mount Machines

What kind of component mix do your products require? (0201, 0402, BGA, QFP, etc.)

This information can help everyone make suggestions.

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I�ve worked as an SMT operator for 3 different companies. And have worked with six different types of pick and place machines. I can tell you what I know. The first place I worked at was high volume low mix and we ran Fuji�s. They are by far the best pick and place machines I�ve ever worked with. They have �floating� cams and �floating� nozzles. But they are expensive and if you can�t do PMs at least once a week, don�t invest the money. They are high maintenance. This is also when I worked with the Universals, and they are awesome for tray and vibe parts. Hands down. The vibes they have swash every other one I have ever worked with. The only line that this company ran that was �low volume high mix� (I quote that because our smallest run was 50 boards but to us that was low volume) ran Siemens. These are the machines that I have the lest amount of experience with. I can�t say a lot about them. They are a lot like the Phillips that I ran for two different companies. I loved running the Phillips. But they error out a lot. And they are less user friendly then the Samsung. By far for low volume high mix go with the Samsung. It�s what I work with now. And they are awesome. They are windows based, and while that carries some bad things (BSOD) it helps the operators out a ton. I have worked also with the Mydata pick and place machines. And they are good for high volume low mix. The set ups are killer. And the software sucks. I hope this helps. Finding new machines sucks. I�ve been through it with every company I�ve worked with and it�s not easy. Have a good engineer and some flexible operators. Megan

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Brad,

I went through the arduous process of selecting new P&P equipment last year. I looked at all of the same machines you are considering in addition to Juki and Europlacer.

We are a high mix low volume shop as well and were running Quad "C" machines to that point. I had used Panasonic, Mydata, Zevatech(now Juki) and KME machines with other companies.

For your application, the Assembleon, Juki, Samsung, Europlacer and Mydata are platforms that deserve consideration. Universal is planting itself in this part of the market now with the Advantis lines.

I picked Juki as I felt that they had the right combination of capability, flexibility, service, software, and price (in that order). Having previous experience with Zevatech played a part as well. We run the piss out of these machines with minimal maintenance and all issues in the first year have been minor (only phone support needed).

Here's my advice: Figure out what is important to you and only entertain mfgr's/reps that are willing to talk to you about those items. Look at demos and run simulations of the programming software using your own data. Make them prove it to you. Talk to users of the equipment as well.

Pare your choices down to 2 or 3 quickly. You can do this on your own using budgetary quotes and specs. If you don't focus on two or three, you'll be swimming in information.

I'm very happy with our choice. Based on what you've said, Juki would be a great choice to consider.

Good Luck.

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What about Essemtec SMD Pick and Place FLX2010 http://www.essemtec.com/e/113.php

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At the risk of being chastised... I must say we have very competitve solutions to the aforementioned companies. You would be doing yourself a disservice to not at least look at the C5 and C5d. We are gaining momentum on this platform as it is proving to be both reliable and easy to operate. I will say no more... www.contactsystems.com

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Mirae MMX machines supported by Tyco........awesome stuff......nuff said!!!!

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Just stick to the facts. People�s opinions vary. Be careful that someone may be commenting on a machine that�s three years old. A lot can change in three years. Too many people use emotion in their decision making process, which often means price. All these companies- Juki, Assembleon, Mydata, Universal and Samsung make good machines; they�re well known names and go back to the 1980s. Quality of service and support can vary from region to region and must be factored in. You mentioned 0201 capabilities. Pick and placing 0201 chip components is a challenge for any pick and place machine- to achieve same performance as say on an 0603. Pick repeatability is a big issue too. Choose three or four of these companies and hit the road with CAD data, boards and components to include 0201 chips. Let them show you their machine from soup to nuts. All high mix, frankly all pick and place users want the same thing in a machine; reliability/durability, ease-of-use, good stable software, accurate and repeatable pick and placing, low MTTR and high MTBF and good support from the manufacturer. Do your due diligence and rely on the biased �opinion� of others as a minor deciding factor. Decide what is important to you and act like you�re from Missouri- Show Me ! Go and kick the tires of the machines. Beware of spin and smoke-and-mirrors.

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Brad,

You may want to give some of my customers a call in reference to the Assembleon machines. The newer style of P&P have windows NT which is much user friendly than the earlier generation.

You can always drop a line back if your interested in feedback.

Thanks

This message was posted the Electronics Forum @

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Could a pick and place machine from APS(out of PA) be added to the list of flexible systems for low-med volume/high mix applications?

Maybe a dumb question but in my defense, never worked/ researched PnP machines before. Read a lot about the brand names . . . Mydata, Samsung, Fuji etc. but not much on the lower priced stuff.

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We are high mix low volume company and we use a MYDATA TP9.

Very good machine that can place 0402's effectively. Issues we've had include: Maintenance - It is an older machine so, it has needed a little more than I care for. Cost of Feeders and Magazines - Although the initial price of the Machine is nice the Mags and feeders can become expensive if not correctly planned for. Fine Pitch Placement - From time to time this can not be as accurate as needed, although we don't have the newer vision system that would certainly fix this problem.

On the good side... Very easy to program especially with the MYCAM software. Very quick and easy to setup.

Actually, looking to invest in a new MY Series come year end.

Good Luck

This message was posted the Electronics Forum @

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Hi Brad,

I suggest you get in contact with Sony. http://www.sonyfa.com/si_e1000/sie1000_producthome.cfm They got the SI E-1100, capable of placing QFPs64/0.5mm simultaenously with all other heads full of components, not like many other machines. Seeing is believing!! I suggest you one thing....ask for the component placement rate according to your product because you will end up, instead of buying a 33K line theoretical, you buy a 14K line with the mixture of components and nozzle changes. Surely it is not the fact with this Sony.

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Hi Brad - You have just opened Pandoras box. EVERYONE seems to have their own favorite machine for their own reason, and I imagine you will get an opinon from just about everyone. I have represented several lines of equipment new, and now am in the used equipment business, so I can offer whatever the customer decides he likes. I also have my personal favorites and dislikes along these same lines, but mine have to do with: 1. what I know about the manufacturers of this equipment, and about how they support their customers; and 2. dealing with the used piece of equipment, after it has been on the production floor for a while. My suggestion is that you (as other forum readers have suggested) narrow the field first with your particular requirement. After you have that list down to a few you are considering, you might throw it back out for comments. Whatever you do, make your own decision for your own reasons - you will have to live with this equipment for a long time, and there are many sales motivated types that will tell you whatever you want to hear. Do your homework, go check out the machine at the sellers facility, get some hands on time with it - get them to show you how to program and run it. Look at the machine construction and enginnering - and don't be fooled by simple programming - this does not get the components placed accurately on the board! LASTLY - forget about price until you have the field narrowed - this is truly the least important issue as all of these guys will jump to make a deal with you that you can live with. Sorry about this giant run on sentance. I have been in this business too long and I see too many people make the same mistakes over and over. If I can help, my number is 310-713-2575, email: scott.fa@cox.net - Good Luck! Scott

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I've worked with Siemens, Philips, and Fuji and my vote is for Siemens. The machines are flexible, easy & quick to change over and their support is great.

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I have also have reviewed the machines listed and decided that the Mydata for low volume high mix, it was the best. It is very flexible when dealing with imperfect material supplied. The other machines are better in the high volume arena

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HI Brad,

I'd stick with QUAD, I believe they are no longer known as quad. It's what you know, a different brand would mean learning it and the time to do so. I've never seen any problem with QUAD, that could not be resolved. The C series is kinda old, but I've seen them place small small parts, smaller than 0603 anyhow. These QUADS are ideal for LOW VOLUME HIGH MIX. I've had at times 3 diffent jobs running on two sepparate machines. Change outs are a snap with all your options available, extra feeders, docking carts...etc. Of course I've seen where mamgt. didn't want to spend the $$$, it then comes down to Operator Skills.

2cents Dave

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So much for good advice.

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Brad, If I were you I would not take advice from anyone on any forum. What you need to do is have all your requirements on a spreadsheet (i.e. part sizes, # of feeders, etc) and then call 2 to 3 minor players in the Pick and place arena and then call 2-3 major players. Get some idea from these players and then make a choice on who is going to demo your needs. If a company wants your business they will offer you a demo at there facility using you pattern programs and dummy parts. Make sure this company can convert your existing programs and create new programs with the tools you have now. Ask about service are there any service tech�s in your area? Ask about phone support? Then when you think you found the machine you want get the names of customers running this machine type and call them and arrange a visit if this is possible. Talked to the employees on the floor operator \ tech�s \ programmers get the picture. Do your own research and make the decision and don�t look back it will be the right one.

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