Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.

SMTnet
»
Electronics Forum
»
New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help

Subscribe to Thread

Hi Folks, Starting a second SMT line this year and it's b... - May 27, 2005 by

Look into the Juki KE-2060E machine. I have been extremely ... - May 27, 2005 by FD

Dear Paul, If you like you can check out our web page for m... - May 27, 2005 by Solcom

If you want to advertise on this forum BUY AN ADVERTISEMENT.... - May 27, 2005 by jdengler

Whose badged machine is it? ... - May 31, 2005 by Rob

I am a supplier of flexible pick and place equipment, not a ... - May 31, 2005 by gregp

Stick with what you know, Panasonic make perfectly good mach... - May 31, 2005 by Rob

Thanks fellows, appreciate the input. For those of you wh... - May 31, 2005 by Gord

Worn out is all relative. If the machine is in a factory on ... - May 31, 2005 by

Panasonic and Fuji made their reputations in this business w... - May 31, 2005 by Fastek

Reading all of the above, the differentiators seem to be ver... - Jun 01, 2005 by

The Fuji flexible model is the XP, (Stay away from the QP!) ... - Jun 02, 2005 by Rob

Hi, We just installed some XP Fuji's and they are totally... - Jun 02, 2005 by Grant

Hi, is that the Grant from Blackmagic who was asking about a... - Jun 02, 2005 by Rob

> Look into the Juki KE-2060E machine. I have been >... - Jun 02, 2005 by

Hi, Yes, and I mean to update that old thread. Things are... - Jun 03, 2005 by Grant

Well done, it's good to hear when things work out. Cheers... - Jun 03, 2005 by Rob

Hi Grant, Rob et al. Thanks again for the thoughts and id... - Jun 03, 2005 by Gord

Grant, I just paid a local owner of a Mydata line to let me ... - Jun 04, 2005 by adlsmt

Somewhat suprising I don't see the new Fuji NXT mentioned as... - Jun 04, 2005 by Fastek

The NXT is more costly and has board size issues when it com... - Jun 06, 2005 by gregp

Ah yes...the board size issue. Not a problem in Asia but in ... - Jun 06, 2005 by Fastek

Careful Greg, you don't like it when people go after your ma... - Jun 07, 2005 by Rob

1100 units. You think someone could offer up some first hand... - Jun 07, 2005 by Greg

From what I've seen most are in China, Taiwan & Japan runnin... - Jun 07, 2005 by Rob

How is pointing out an obvious drawback (for a flex machine)... - Jun 07, 2005 by gregp

Simple Greg, we are users of machines & you are a manufactur... - Jun 07, 2005 by Rob

I think if you represent an equipment manufacturer or resell... - Jun 07, 2005 by jdengler

Rob, I don't have the time to do the research and prove my ... - Jun 07, 2005 by gregp

Hi, Sorry for getting a little off the original thread to... - Jun 08, 2005 by

This thread proved useful. We are considering our own SMT li... - Jun 13, 2005 by Doug

Gee Greg I did not know you have been in this for 20+ years.... - Jul 12, 2005 by

Hi Rob, Although this thread is a bit out. I would like t... - Sep 09, 2005 by hanzhang

You might want to look at Universal's Advantis machines. I v... - Sep 12, 2005 by

The Advantis with a lightning head is less accurate at chips... - Sep 12, 2005 by Rob

The Advantis was more accurate than the turret, so he claime... - Sep 12, 2005 by

Universal had not made it on the list due to anticipatory pr... - Sep 12, 2005 by Doug

Then he's a very naughty man! Advantis with Lightning hea... - Sep 12, 2005 by Rob

Small manufacturers in America are for the most part dealing... - Sep 12, 2005 by Doug

Doug, my previous perception of Universal was the same as yo... - Sep 12, 2005 by

Sounds like a road trip is in order. I'll dig up the local r... - Sep 12, 2005 by Doug

Fuji is always a good choice. Please let us show you the pla... - Jun 28, 2006 by

Scott, Over a year late.......give some notice to the date'... - Jun 28, 2006 by

Yes, you are right, but I am still here! I went with Mydata ... - Jun 28, 2006 by

Hi, Oh, never noticed this old comment, but now the threa... - Jun 29, 2006 by Grant

Hi, Actually the sales guy from Fuji recommended to us XP... - Jun 29, 2006 by Grant

Hi, I think it's a good choice for a startup, and if your... - Jun 29, 2006 by Grant

Things are changing and I think you will see more product co... - Jun 30, 2006 by Fastek

Thanks guys. The Mydata is built like a tank and simply turn... - Jun 30, 2006 by

Hi Guys a little late hear, The Fuji AIM machine is the pref... - Jul 01, 2006 by JOHNW

Dear ve7khz We are the manufacturer of SMT accessorial mat... - Jul 03, 2006 by Eyry Ren

Hi, Bit late for the sales thing, I think. Grant ... - Jul 03, 2006 by Grant

Fuji AIM users. If you wish to splice 8mm component tape ree... - Sep 28, 2006 by

ve7khz

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 27 May, 2005

Hi Folks,

Starting a second SMT line this year and it's been (too) long since I have looked at newish machines and I am in need of some assistance with P&P machine selection. Here is what we currently have: Panasonic CM-202 chip shooter 216 8mm reel capacity, which we have maxed out about 6 months ago. This places most of our chips but no odd forms. This is followed by an Amistar (Tenryu) 5630 which does the odd form parts and a few trayed QFPs. Our goal is to a.) have a redundant line in case of any machine failure in line 1 and b.) be able to handle another 60-100 parts without having to ever change feeders. Ideally we would wind up with a nice full capacity line with a perhaps slower, secondary line for some of the mature, stable products.

Here is what I am contemplating so far, and like I said, I am not familiar with some of the other mfrs and what they have offered in the last 5-8 years.

Move the Amistar to become the secondary line, add newer machine behind the Panasonic. The (used) machines I have looked at so far are Assembleon Topaz, Emerald and LCS(the originals), Amistar 7100FV, Panasonic MSF and MVA family of machines. If we go with new machines, Pansonic CM-301 or Amistar (i-Pulse) M4e.

I would like to hear from you, what sort of flex machines you are using and your experiences with them. We need to place odd form components such as SMT relays, electrolytics, switches etc. and would like to be able to use trayed parts as well. The second machine would also need 60 plus feeders to allow further growth. We really don't want to have to change feeders again, just load our parts and go.

What other machines would be suitable? Fuji, MyData etc??

Appreciate any info you can pass on.

production AT tekmarcontrols.com

Cheers

Paul

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 27 May, 2005

Look into the Juki KE-2060E machine. I have been extremely pleased with this machine. It will hold 80-8mm feeders, place 0201 (0603-metric) up to 74mm square ICs and BGA, 150mm long connectors. Up to 25mm tall components. It can handle up to 30 trays in their tray handler. MicroBGA are not a problem either.

There hasn't been an odd component that I haven't been able to place on this machine. Although, I have had to send samples to their special Apps dept for help, but they were always able to get the machine to place the parts.

The factory also offers a wide array of custom nozzles and gripper nozzles, if you need them.

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 27 May, 2005

Dear Paul, If you like you can check out our web page for more details on what you are looking for. Most people are not aware that SONY makes SMT equipment. Well, actually they started selling these equipment from this year. Are prices will not be beat.

www.solcomusa.com

Best regards, Gary

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 27 May, 2005

If you want to advertise on this forum BUY AN ADVERTISEMENT.

Jerry

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 31 May, 2005

Whose badged machine is it?

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 31 May, 2005

I am a supplier of flexible pick and place equipment, not a end user. Your question is about new pick and place machines with high feeder capacity and SMT lines with redundancy. That is exactly what the C5 Placement machine from Contact Systems is. Check it out on the web at http://www.contactsystems.com

This is not a shameless plug...just potential good information for Paul.

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 31 May, 2005

Stick with what you know, Panasonic make perfectly good machines that are in installs all around the world and last for ever. I believe the I-Pulse is a derivitive of the Yamaha/Assembleon platform & as such should be adequate. (I'm sure Base will confirm or deny this if he's looking!)

If you are buying OLD second or third user make sure it's a Panasonic or Fuji as they go on for ever, whereas most of the others are sold on when they are tired & had it.

On no account go for a "different" product because it sounds interesting, be a sheep & go with the collective experience. Different means trouble & low residuals, and limited industry help.

Cheers,

Rob.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 31 May, 2005

Thanks fellows, appreciate the input.

For those of you who have experience with various machines, what are some of the pros/cons of these? What seems to be readily available are Assembleon Topaz/Emerald and Panasonic MSF, MVA etc. I don't know thing one about Fuji and would like to know what models their flex machines would be. I agree, I would like to stay with the CM line of Panasonic but they are not available on the used market from what I have seen. (see Rob's comment re: running forever) Is an Assembleon with 10,000 plus hours considered to be "worn out". I know this probably isn't an easy question to answer as it depends somewhat on maintenance shedule but in general...??

Again, thanks for your input.

Moving closer to a decision....

Paul

??

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 31 May, 2005

Worn out is all relative. If the machine is in a factory on a dirt floor with no air-conditioning.....it could be "worn out" after 1000 hrs. but then again....if it is in a well kept building with the proper maintenence........10000 hrs could be fine. In other words....you need to know the machine your buying and you need to go look at it before you buy it.

my 2 cents worth.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 31 May, 2005

Panasonic and Fuji made their reputations in this business with their chipshooters. These are bullet proof machines that will perform admirably in the field for decades hence their reputation cannot be argued. However...what they are building today are not the turret based chipshooters of old. Like everyone else they have succumbed to the modular pick and place platform and by their nature they are not going to last decades in the field like their previous platforms would. These modular machines are simply much more fragile and cheaply built then the tanks of yesterday were so I wouldn't give Fuji or Panasonic an edge on longevity compared to Seimens or Assembleon anymore. So how long will they last? It will vary from one country and one company to the next. The thing you need to realize though is this.....the days of a people lining up to throw a million dollars on a new line are history. A new Topaz will cost you about $100K and most vendors have something along those lines as well. A Panasonic or Fuji chipshooter in 1992 went for $600K new. It's no wonder those old tanks are still pounding nails all day long. They were built to last and I'm not sure you can say that about these new modular platforms. Like everything else in the world the SMT equipment market is following the trend towards disposable short life marketing....ie cell phones, computers and automobiles.

Base

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 1 June, 2005

Reading all of the above, the differentiators seem to be very hard to spot by looking only at the quality of the iron and how it is bolted together. Perhaps you should broaden the equation and look at the quality of service that comes with the (second-hand) machine. As Fastek said, second-hand smaller gantry machines are a bit more sensitive to their environment and the amount of TLC they got so far, so you might need a service organization that can back you up 100%.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 2 June, 2005

The Fuji flexible model is the XP, (Stay away from the QP!) but (as a previous poster mentioned) I'm used to the Bomb proof Chipshooters. They still make these and from memory I think they are around $350,000 each. They will place BGA's and reasonably big IC's (25x25?)but you can forget oddform.

Regarding Assmeblion, it depends where you are in the world to which brand you buy for support etc. Stay away from the early FCM's. I've seen alot of Emeralds, Topaz & comet machines still giving good service after a 6 or 7 years, but I've never bothered looking at the hours counters.

It basically comes down to how hard you are going to run your machine & how much time you can afford for downtime; if you are runnning 24/7 (7000+ hours per year)and you want this machine to last for 5 years plus it needs to be built like a tank & you should look at a Chipshooter (It will also give you the feeder space you require to reduce changeovers). Whereas if you are running 5 days a week and 1 or 2 shifts then a flexible machine would be more helpful.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 2 June, 2005

Hi,

We just installed some XP Fuji's and they are totally amazing, and place everything perfectly. We have not actually had any misplacements yet in the two weeks running, and they are fast, so I am very happy with them. Going to add a couple more.

They seemed fairly simple when we looked them at the show, but they are also built like tanks, and were over 2 tons each, with 8 solid metal feet. They move very fast, and don't vibrate. I cannot believe metal can move so fast, but so smoothly, without vibration. The vision system is incredible, and quite a difference to what we had before.

So I would recommend Fuji XP, they work great from our experience so far, and seem as well built as any other Fuji. Feeders are low cost and available.

I think we have learnt the hard way that unless you spend the $ and get a top brand product, you just won't get the quality. It does not take many placement problems on a cheaper machine to add up in rework and component costs.

So I think the advice is to spend everything you have on placers and stencil printers, as that's where the quality of the line comes from.

Regards,

Grant

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 2 June, 2005

Hi, is that the Grant from Blackmagic who was asking about all different machines last year?

URI

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 2 June, 2005

> Look into the Juki KE-2060E machine. I have been > extremely pleased with this machine. It will > hold 80-8mm feeders, place 0201 (0603-metric) up > to 74mm square ICs and BGA, 150mm long > connectors. Up to 25mm tall components. It can > handle up to 30 trays in their tray handler. > MicroBGA are not a problem either. > > There > hasn't been an odd component that I haven't been > able to place on this machine. Although, I have > had to send samples to their special Apps dept > for help, but they were always able to get the > machine to place the parts. > > The factory also > offers a wide array of custom nozzles and gripper > nozzles, if you need them.

Hi Paul,

To make the story short from my side, i-Pulse M2 is a very good and flexible machine for you. Order it with 20MM comp. height and you will have hi speed chip shutter and IC plus Odd-shape placer in one smart machine. The X-Y gantry is same as Yamaha (philips) Topza / Emerals Xg new series. We are running 4 M2 machines and 2 M1plus from i-Pulse in non-stop production. Price is not down like Samsung but the machines are more ridgid. Uri

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 3 June, 2005

Hi,

Yes, and I mean to update that old thread. Things are working really well now we have changed over. Looking for a buyer for the MYDATA now, and we are going to unload the vapor phase and manual printer, and some long conveyers. Need to add it all to the equpment mart page!

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 3 June, 2005

Well done, it's good to hear when things work out.

Cheers,

Rob.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 3 June, 2005

Hi Grant, Rob et al.

Thanks again for the thoughts and ideas. Yes, service is definately important and we are getting excellent service from our Panasonic and Amistar reps. We are in Canada and only run 5 days/week, 8 hour shifts, 150 different products with lots of commonality. Fair amount of odd form switches, relays and caps. Nothing finer than .02" pitch QFP for now. No BGA. Mostly 1206 and 0603 chips. We seemed to miss the 0805 boat.

Will check out the Fuji XP to see if it will handle our requirements. The Emerald looks good so far, as does the M4e new machine from i-Pulse (Amistar).

Cheers for now.

Paul

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 4 June, 2005

Grant, I just paid a local owner of a Mydata line to let me run some boards on thier machine to check the accuracy. I had severe doubts about the accuracy of the machines based mostly on your comments on SMTnet. The machine ran great. I have also e-mailed you twice with no responce trying to buy your Mydata machine. I was told the machine was still available by a US broker but he did not own it, do you still have it? You only had it for a few months, is it posible that your problems were programming or training related? Dont get me wrong, I have machines that are dead nuts on but programming sucks and takes forever to get them running right. Mydata appears to have the fastest feeder setups in the industry, this is 90% of our time. But you have me freaked out about the capability of the machine. It is slow compared to most other vendors but the feeder setup cant be beat.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 4 June, 2005

Somewhat suprising I don't see the new Fuji NXT mentioned as a possibility in this thread. Nobody out there using this platform? Seems to me to be the better choice over the XP.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 6 June, 2005

The NXT is more costly and has board size issues when it comes to CM applications. There are some other threads about the NXT machines.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 6 June, 2005

Ah yes...the board size issue. Not a problem in Asia but in the US I guess it's more of a concern. Fuji did sell around 1100 modules last year though so someone out there likes them. At around $100K per module I don't think they're that expensive.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 7 June, 2005

Careful Greg, you don't like it when people go after your machines in what you see as an unfair manor, so don't go after Fuji's with conjecture.

How close to 1100 units were your company last year?

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 7 June, 2005

1100 units. You think someone could offer up some first hand experiences with this machine. Maybe Vera1001 can offer some insight.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 7 June, 2005

From what I've seen most are in China, Taiwan & Japan running 24/7, usually with full Fuji support, so no need at this stage to use a forum like ours, or in places with no internet access in some cases (ie. China).

Vera would probably offer us some fine Siemens HS180s, and quality unbranded consumables.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 7 June, 2005

How is pointing out an obvious drawback (for a flex machine) considered "going after with conjecture"? Fuji obviously is a world leader in the P & P arena. The NXT is not the right machine in this case. If you like the NXT, it is no big secret that Fuji has a more appropriate platform (new) in this case and and its not the XP series.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 7 June, 2005

Simple Greg, we are users of machines & you are a manufacturer of machines. How many times have you personally found that your Fuji is too small to handle your boards recently?

The customer has a Panasonic CM202, which from memory goes from 50x50mm to 460x360mm. He doesn't say at any point that it can't handle what he wants. The NXT M6 goes from 50x50mm to 534x510mm.

Personally, just for the record I'm not a fan of the NXT, but without sitting down with the customer & running through his current & future needs in detail I can't decide what machine is right or wrong for him.

Incidently, you never did answer the question on how many units you sold last year.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 7 June, 2005

I think if you represent an equipment manufacturer or reseller you should ALWAYS preface any comments you make about equipment with your affiliation. This way everyone can judge your comments.

Jerry

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 7 June, 2005

Rob, I don't have the time to do the research and prove my points. What I know is from 20+ years studying the competition. Any Fuji saleman would tell you that based on the original post the AIM platform is the better choice. Bigger board, more feeder capacity--period. As for our machine sales, we are a privately owned company and this information is confidential. Suffice it to say, we sold more than Quad, Europlacer, Multitroniks, Amistar and Dynapert combined;)

Grant

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 8 June, 2005

Hi,

Sorry for getting a little off the original thread topic here, and we should do this offline.

We found there is quite a difference running a few boards to running hundreds per day with about 100,000 placements per day. That's what we ended up doing, and the Fuji's are much better at it, and keep doing it day after day. The MYDATA's very flexible, and that was great when we started, but ended up not being fast or accurate enough for such high volume. So we looked at what consumer manufacturers do, and went for the Fujis and are happy with the decision. The Fuji's are more expensive though.

The machine was going to be sold into Europe, but then they wanted the last minute price reduction, that we did not want to sell the machine for. This machine is only a few months old because we traded it for our older MY9 when we needed more feeder space. But the company kept growing, and we also needed more volume.

Not sure why you did not get a reply from us, and please email me at grantpetty@blackmagic-design.com, and it should get to me. We can then continue the conversation offline if you like.

Regards,

Grant

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 13 June, 2005

This thread proved useful. We are considering our own SMT line, and yes, its the Topaz vs Mydata discussion. From our work, the Phillips support seems better, but this is a region by region issue. The accuracy and placement rates are both good for what they are. We make sensors so its high mix low volume anyway. Still, anyone have a coin to toss? It will be once again decided on the best deal,so all I need to do is look 3 to 5 years into the future....

doug

Jim

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 July, 2005

Gee Greg I did not know you have been in this for 20+ years. One would have thought you might have figured out how to design a machine that could sell more than 5 per year. or was it that many?

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 9 September, 2005

Hi Rob,

Although this thread is a bit out. I would like to share some information with you and other guys here. The situation is almost the same in Asia, that machines in small factory keep running for the whole day. Actually Fuji couldn't stand by in the factory for the whole day. So,in China,we do have forum to discuss all kinds problems of all kinds brand of SMT equipments. You can check it out on WWW.SMTHOME.NET,but it's only in Chinese. I do think that we are disired to learn more about SMT equipment. We have our owned way to conmunicate via QQ group. QQ is kinda like MSN. We are not out. Our forum covers more aspects than here, and we refresh more frequently than here. And it's professional. Hope sincerely that this information will help you to know more about the situation of SMT in China.

Best Regards, Michelle

cmiller

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

You might want to look at Universal's Advantis machines. I visited thier factory a few months ago in NY. They are building a LOT of machines so they must be selling a lot of them. I have been to two places that have them installed and the lightning head machine is very impressive-even more so since it only costs $150K. I have been told by a number of reps for other equip that there are a lot of problems with it but could not find any users that had any complaints at all. A tier 1 EMS engineer told me the quality is better than on thier turret machines. I have been told also that thier software is somewhat complex but when we saw it it looked great, its new NPI software and we had a program running very quickly. And I believe you can put the new NPI software on an old GSM, try that with Philips!

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

The Advantis with a lightning head is less accurate at chipshooting than a Fuji CP643. That's progress?

Yes it is a great platform for it's space & yes it is a good all in one package, and the IC aacuracy is far better than stated.

But you run one 24/7 against a modern turret machine and although they are very good, they don't compete.

Oh & I agree on the software it always been awkward, which is a shame as they've always made the best fine pitch & oddform placers in the business.

However the original post was for a low volume start up & an advantis is not a low cost solution to this - something like a 2nd user mydata with DIY maintenance, cheap feeders, and simple learning curve for around $30K.

BTW I thought the $150K Advantis was a single beam flex head machine, the Lightning starting at around the $180K?

cmiller

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

The Advantis was more accurate than the turret, so he claimed. The Single beam (dual lead screw drive-this is not a GSM 1) flex machine is $125K the Lightning is $150K. They changed the pricing in 2004. I was quoted a Topaz XII at $187K. I know Philips will deal alot on the price though, which always makes you wonder if you got a good deal or not. I agree entry level low volume stick with used stuff but if anybody is looking at new Philips or Mydata equipment and thought they could not afford Universal, you may want to look again.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

Universal had not made it on the list due to anticipatory price shock. Its my fault on homework, when I think of Universals and Fujis,I envision high speed, full volume, 24/7 and maybe not that easy for quick changes. So, yes, I am pleased to hear about a "lower cost" Universal. But again, high mix low volume and total price is an issue. We need a machine that is reliable and easy to use. It is necessary to have an effective, adaptable machine.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

Then he's a very naughty man!

Advantis with Lightning head: Chip Accuracy +/- 68uM @ 3 sigma

CP643: +/- 66uM @ 3 sigma CP842: +/- 55uM @ 3 sigma

I know specs are just statistics but both our Fujis & Universals still calibrated to well within the manufacturers specs after years of useage.

Thanks for the new prices, I was quoted earlier this year, & yes I would buy an Advantis if I were a mid volume subby just starting out & was buying new.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

Small manufacturers in America are for the most part dealing in gurrilla warfare. We need to have economic, adaptive and easy to use equipment, or we die. Scientific and engineering innovation results in improvisation, revisions and new prodcuts. The requirement is that for a manufacturer that has satisfied the economic boundary conditions for an SMT facility, the equipment needs to parallel that style and pace: economic; adaptive; easy to use, with good production volume elasticity.

cmiller

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

Doug, my previous perception of Universal was the same as yours. $$$$. (plus we already have Philips equipment) The new software is really good. They are price competitive. They make the machines for the North American market in NY. They probably had 80 machines in process when we were there. They have a complete line set up there so you can go run boards there. I was very impressed by the facility and the equipment and more than anything the people. I was shocked that they can really compete in the mid to low end market. I would give it a look. I think almost every major vendor will be at the Assembly Technology Show in Chicago. I think you can see them there.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 12 September, 2005

Sounds like a road trip is in order. I'll dig up the local rep. Thanks for the info. its also nice to think of phoning support and getting an upstate accent.

doug

Scott Wischoffer

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 28 June, 2006

Fuji is always a good choice. Please let us show you the placement equipment we offer and how it would fit into your production environment.

bobpan

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 28 June, 2006

Scott, Over a year late.......give some notice to the date's of the original post.

doug

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 28 June, 2006

Yes, you are right, but I am still here! I went with Mydata - at least for now - rock steady, easy to use, etc. We were up and running in 2 days. Ok, so you watch it place and think perhaps you can personally go just as fast, but it does a fine job. Now the big question is do I buy another to pick up speed.

The question I feel still stands for many in the U.S. Some of us are building up capability as opposed to shipping it to the far east - are we dinosaurs, or perhaps the small mammels under the leaves awaiting for the next evolutionary step in doing business in the U.S.

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 29 June, 2006

Hi,

Oh, never noticed this old comment, but now the threads been revived i can comment.

I have actually owned three MYDATA machines over the duration of the last 6 years, and they all had accuracy problems. It depends on what your doing, but we got to 0402, and had dropped components randomly, and also had issues with accuracy. We have lots of passives so the problem is increased because some of our products that thousands of components per unit, mostly passives. So we are lowish unit volume, but quite high component volume.

We thought it was ok, but as our volume increased we had more and more issues that were placement related. We worked extremely hard with the MYDATA guys to solve it. We also had random fails of vision on BGA and QFP parts, but when we put them back on the tray they would load.

Compared to the Fuji XP machines we put in, you could actually see the difference in accuracy, and when it rejects a part due to vision, it keeps rejecting it because its vision system is actually measuring the part, and failing it.

We knew how to use the MYDATAs, and spent a load of cash upgrading to the latest of everything. I also remember the Aggillis 12 and 16 mm feeders just did not work right.

The problem is you need to own then and run some volume to see the issues. Just going and checking one out is not going to cut it really.

I still think for very low volume high mix they are ok, because they are cheap, and easy to setup, but if you ever think your going to do more than a few thousand units a month, then consider other platforms.

Regards,

Grant

New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help | 29 June, 2006

Hi,

Actually the sales guy from Fuji recommended to us XP because of the speed and feeder load. We get 100 feeder positions per chip shooter, so that's nice, plus they are CP feeders, so there is a lot of second hand feeders.

I saw the NXT in Taiwan, and it was impressive, but expensive, so out of our reach at the time. I would get it now though when putting in another line, even with the issue of needing different feeders.

Grant

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 29 June, 2006

Hi,

I think it's a good choice for a startup, and if your finding it's accurate enough. We only went Fuji because of our volume, and small errors were adding up, but if I was starting from nothing again it would be MYDATA because I could not afford anything else. After all our MYDATA did pay for our Fuji's!

It's good to hear your going well, and I would not worry about doing manufacturing in the US, as most people who outsource have high volume, and need to do it due to price pressures, as well as ideological grounds.

Outsourcing to an International country means your going to get long lead times from order to fulfillment. However with in house manufacturing you have instant response to demand, and a totally efficient supply chain. You can use customer pull to generate production in real time, with very little inventory in the pipe. You cannot do that with our-sourcing in China, where you might need to give 4 months scheduling.

That's not a problem except in an environment where the products change often. In that situation you don't want stock, or you cannot change your product often. So all your good ideas and new products get stalled because of slow manufacturing response.

What's the only reason we build in house.

Regards,

Grant

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 30 June, 2006

Things are changing and I think you will see more product coming back to the US as we go forward.

China is seeing massive wage increases and the cost of living/housing is becoming over heated. The wage advantages they had over everyone else is quickly becoming a thing of the past. They are blowing it big time. But is anyone surprised by this? Not really....if you've ever done business over there you would know. I think you are seeing product already coming back as a surge in business in Mexico could be related to this exodus.

The US CM's who were able to weather the storm and are still around should be in great shape over the next few years.

doug johnson

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 30 June, 2006

Thanks guys. The Mydata is built like a tank and simply turned on and ran. I was involved with US gov negotiations with China in the late 80's, and have seen the changes. Wholesale transfer of entire bodies of mfg knowledge, complete gutting of large manuf. facilities in the US, these are tragedies. My hope, my real hope, is that after the gutting of the US, there will be leadership here that sees the chance of a "Marshal Plan" for the US, with massive re-investment at the development and manufacturing level. But thats a hope, in the future, and it requires leadership.

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 1 July, 2006

Hi Guys a little late hear, The Fuji AIM machine is the prefered machine and the NXT has been qualified by 2 major Electronic CMs as the prefered machine for Europe. They are over 700 units in Eastern Europe just now.My thoughts are stick with what you know and ask the 2 main companies to supply machines in your plant and run a benchmark criteria

Eyry Ren

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 3 July, 2006

Dear ve7khz We are the manufacturer of SMT accessorial material.stencil clean roll and splice tape.We are can manufacture many style stencil clean roll for kinds of screen printer machine and splice tape special for kinds of placement machine. If you need please send message to sale@comofaje.com

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 3 July, 2006

Hi,

Bit late for the sales thing, I think.

Grant

fujismt@btconnect.com

New SMT line - Need equipment selection help | 28 September, 2006

Fuji AIM users. If you wish to splice 8mm component tape reels using this machine, visit http://www.fujismt.com and look at Fuji Chemical FC8A Joint Tapes. Ideally suited and in use on the Fuji AIM machine, FC8A is easy to use and available for next day delivery in Europe and USA.

SMTnet
»
Electronics Forum
»
New SMT line - P&P equipment selection help

World's Best Reflow Oven Customizable for Unique Applications

How much time do you spend on production change-over? Learn how to streamline High-Mix Low-Volume operations.

High Speed Precision In-Line SPI with Exclusive TWENTY-FIVE MEGA PIXEL ISIS® Vision System - Mirtec MS-15 Series.

© 1995-2023 SMTnet

pcb potting

Now Online

22
Visitors

0
Member

Who are SMTnet visitors?

Become a member now and receive the value and benefits of membership.

Void Free Reflow Soldering

Capillary Underfill Dispensing

pressure curing ovens