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Where's the rush?

Where's the rush?

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Has anyone experienced any type of rush by customers to go P... - Feb 23, 2006 by BillyD

Our current customers are getting all over us to make sure t... - Feb 23, 2006 by RDR

Hi, We are an OEM, so we deal with all stages of the pipe... - Feb 23, 2006 by Grant

We should be getting close to a new "deadline" huh? what is... - Feb 23, 2006 by RDR

I think most of the european PCB assemblers will be ready, h... - Feb 24, 2006 by Rob

The really crazy part is, the way the Europeans wrote up the... - Feb 24, 2006 by BillyD

Hi Russ, Just a quick note to you the assembly houses, Yo... - Feb 24, 2006 by

I agree. When I said the easiest I am talking about resourc... - Feb 24, 2006 by RDR

Hi All, The change over to lead-free is as easy or as dif... - Feb 24, 2006 by Patrick Bruneel

About 8 years ago when I looked up IC data sheets, I would f... - Feb 24, 2006 by Stephen

No doubt. Now a days component mfgers have just changed the... - Feb 24, 2006 by

Chunks is right, in the main the termination material is the... - Feb 27, 2006 by Rob

BillyD

#39940

Where's the rush? | 23 February, 2006

Has anyone experienced any type of rush by customers to go Pb free? I mean, I see a huge rush for all the CM's to get their ducks in a row, but I haven't seen any push from any other part of the industry to get moving on it. We do a few lead free items now, for a few customers, but the vast majority aren't moving on it yet. I'm expecting many to get a push from outside sources when they try to ship leaded items and get them refused, and then a huge panic to get Pb free goods in the marketplace. I'm just wondering if the rest of the world is seeing this to. (Excluding OEM's of course)

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RDR

#39944

Where's the rush? | 23 February, 2006

Our current customers are getting all over us to make sure that "we are ready". When we inform that we are and ask them how they are doing in crossing their B.O.M.s to pbfree we get these blank stares. It's almost becoming comical!! it's like everyone is just throwing rohs around and not too many people/orginizations/companies even understand what is going on or what is required on their part. Some of them I honestly believe think that on the deadline date it's just going to happen!?

It might just be me but I think that us CMs have it about the easiest in this (stupid) transition. I say this because we use the Customer AVL(s) so we don't have to find the crosses unless they ask for our help.

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Grant

#39956

Where's the rush? | 23 February, 2006

Hi,

We are an OEM, so we deal with all stages of the pipeline from parts purchasing, to assembly to sales through our channel, and the biggest thing we have been worrying about is our inventory and bom conversions, as I don't want to be stuck with lead components.

If your customers are not thinking about changing their inventories of parts to lead free, then it's almost too late to do anything. I think you guys need to educate them quick, or it's going to be a nightmare for all.

What worries us is we need to be lead free well before the deadline, as otherwise our dealers and distributors of our products will have stock of finished product that has lead. Even though we keep lean inventories, dealers and distributors often keep some products for a while, and so it's really important to make sure they are flushed out before the deadline.

This means from our point of view, the deadline is well before July for us. I expect a lot of people are not thinking about the whole supply chain when thinking about lead free, and it's not about converting the assembly process over before the deadline, but the issue is clearing the whole supply chain. Times running out.

Regards,

Grant

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RDR

#39957

Where's the rush? | 23 February, 2006

We should be getting close to a new "deadline" huh? what is going to happen in Europe when the day comes and "it just aint ready" Will they actuall stop importing and using? I have not read the directive for all of the little nuts and bolts so this comment may be invalid or unsupported. I just can't see all of this implemented in 4 months.

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Rob

#39964

Where's the rush? | 24 February, 2006

I think most of the european PCB assemblers will be ready, however taking it further to retail stocks & waste disposal is another matter.

Checking the stats of our parent company (a component distributor) 97% of all components shipped are ROHS compliant; sales are split roughly 75% OEM/25% CEM - so at least in europe OEM's appear to be in line.

The 3% is mainly parts awaiting possible exemption or for high reliability.

Hope that helps,

Rob.

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BillyD

#39969

Where's the rush? | 24 February, 2006

The really crazy part is, the way the Europeans wrote up the law, it holds the retailers responsible for getting rid of, and not possessing, leaded devices. They're the ones left holding the bag when things don't happen as they should. They get fined for having the cell phone or walkman in their shop after the date, yet they can't get rid of them anywhere else, so they end up eating the cost of all of their excess inventory. It's really screwed up.

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Board House

#39982

Where's the rush? | 24 February, 2006

Hi Russ,

Just a quick note to you the assembly houses, You say your transition will be the easiest, I would have to beg to differ after working with several CM's and working with there Wave solder lines and finding compatibale fluxes that will work with these No lead Componants. Most of the shops I have delt with have had to experment with quit a few fluxes and profiles to get this lead free stuff work and even then it is still not been perfect. Different Surface finishes cause different problems.

So for the CM's in my opinion that are just getting into this, they are in for a big surprise if they think it will be an easy change over. Most Companies have been working on this already for at least 6 mos.

Just My Opinion

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RDR

#39984

Where's the rush? | 24 February, 2006

I agree. When I said the easiest I am talking about resource and effort. I have seen our custmoers working on B.O.M. and AVL for in excess of a year with multiple people. We have been running SMT pbfree for 2 years now and it actually has been easy. I do know that the wave process needs development but I don't think it will take 5 engineers a year to get right. I could be wrong! Hope not. since I am the only eng. here and I don't have a year.

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Patrick Bruneel

#39991

Where's the rush? | 24 February, 2006

Hi All,

The change over to lead-free is as easy or as difficult as you want to make it The big problem I see with this lead-free transition is that there is no benchmark of acceptability and no defect data (yet) related to visual appearance of a solderjoint. With my experience in the field these days it looks to me like the whole world has become a beta test side. The scary part is (before the lead free) when I promoted a flux requiring a topside heat of 130C topside I almost got thrown out the door because the components would be damaged. Now when someone goes lead-free I see temperatures up to 160C topside board and wave temps up to 270C with a 4-6 sec dwell time. When I ask what about the components, I get the answer "they are made for lead free" duh. Isn't it just the component plating that has changed or am I missing something? In the past, to justify the higher heat and the safety margin I referred to the UL listing of components and board calling out 260C/6 sec. With the leaded process parameter this condition could never be reached, but now with lead-free and VOC free (water-based fluxes) the boards get fried and steamed by way of speaking sometimes way above UL limits. It's also funny to watch the boards carefully baked to drive out moisture and then plunged into a VOC free 98% water-flux. To finish on the subject I see companies only shipping 5% to Europe switching to lead-free since when have minority become majority? Is 5% really worth the risk of the other 95%

I start to believe that RoHS stands for Rare occasion of Human Stupidity.

Oh well maybe I need to lose my passion for soldering and go into politics.

Have a great weekend

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Stephen

#39997

Where's the rush? | 24 February, 2006

About 8 years ago when I looked up IC data sheets, I would find the reflow temperature tolerance data for them. (i.e. can withstand 280C for 180 seconds or whatever) I wasn't looking for that info at that time but noticed on at least some data sheets. I did find it every time I did look for that info.

Now when I look for it because of PBfree temp concerns I haven't found the info on any datasheet.

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Chunks

#40007

Where's the beef?!?! | 24 February, 2006

No doubt. Now a days component mfgers have just changed their plating for no lead, but dare not post the max temps for their product which are at the edge of destruction.

Kinda like the surface mount batteries that can't take the reflow temps.

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Rob

#40022

Where's the beef?!?! | 27 February, 2006

Chunks is right, in the main the termination material is the only change. However, plastics have changed & the ones free of nasty chemicals (polybrominated whatevers)are actually less temperature tolerant.

Also some manufacturers do publish PBT (peak body temperature) - for example 260C for 15 seconds, whilst others just say max temp & no times, and others just refer you to Jedec package specs.

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