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Pick & Place Machine Longevity

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Most pick and place machines today look highly advanced and ... - Jun 02, 2018 by Reckless  

#80493

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 2 June, 2018

Most pick and place machines today look highly advanced and extremely complicated and need alot of manufacturer support. Remind me of modern day german cars. My question is can any of these machines be run without Manufacturer support? I imagine parts will become an issue but I am looking for machines that don't require a marriage contract once they come off warranty. I hate how these companies will charge $5,000 annual user fees to support their machines. I prefer simplified machines that don't have too many parts that can go wrong/bad or hard to find.

I went from being a Mercedes man to loving Toyotas for their simplicity and dependability. What is the Toyota of Pick & Place Machines?

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#80494

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 4 June, 2018

A Mercedes might have a few more toys in the dash, but both of them these days leave most of the engine management and diagnostics in the hands of an ECU or two. Of course spares for one are notoriously expensive, because they can. In both cases you can buy grey market spares if you want to take your life into your hands.

I'd have a guess the answer is probably a Juki, but not models descended from Sony machines, just the simpler/cheaper ones. In some respects Juki appear to have chosen to keep their machines simpler than some others. Having said that for low volumes Autotronik machines might also fit the bill, cheap, get the job done, low feature set....

However analogies with cars are difficult & swiftly run their out of gas.

There are only really a handful of Pick & Place machine makers left, in recent years they have all merged to better tackle the challenges the rapid growth of consumer electronics has thrown at them. They are by necessity expensive machines full of bespoke parts, unlike cars a manufacturer cannot rely on an output of millions of units to share parts across multiple models.

To keep those machines in tip top shape they need to be serviced properly and that will include using the correct lubricants and cleaners in the correct places and adjustments will have to be made as the machine ages to keep it operating accurately. A large business might well have the resources to buy all the calibration & service equipment and train someone in all aspects of servicing. A small business might not be able to justify that, however what that service costs will vary between manufacturers.

On our Essemtec machine, in house maintenance essentially boils down to keeping it clean, maybe changing a filter etc. The regional Essemtec trained engineer will come and service it when required, they don't pester me if I have it done less regularly than recommended. I do know Essemtec are not keen on training end users to do the full service although quite a lot of what the engineer does is in the manual if I wanted to take the head to bits myself for example. However quite why I would want to assign myself that responsibility on a mission critical piece of equipment is beyond me. Pay someone else, and if it goes horribly wrong, its their fault & their problem. This Essemtec service is nothing more than that, a service including some routine maintenance, calibration and anything else you might want them to do in the allocated time, it costs <$1500.

Machines for larger installations from other manufacturers might well have larger fees but they are also for a different service. These services often include a guarantee to get you a spare part overnight. 24 hours phone/remote support a scheduled service and x floating days for callouts. When compared to the ROI these machines have, these charges are not that expensive and you should be able to negotiate your own service level if you feel what they are offering is excessive to your needs.

I can tell you an OEM with exactly the same machine as us calculated that bringing production in house meant the line they installed to do it, paid for itself in under 18 months. When a machine is that valuable why on earth would you begrudge spending 3-5% of its headline cost making sure it keeps saving you that money?

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#80498

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 4 June, 2018

Actually the newer pick and place machines are much less complex as far as mechanics, and wiring. The software however is much more complex output wise, but way easier to use.

I have been working with SMT equipment going on 3 decades. To answer your question, I have never seen an instance where you do not need manufacturer support. Even Maytag's break occasionally.

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#80499

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 4 June, 2018

We have 2 Samsung SM482 P&P machines. One we have had for almost 3yrs and the other going on 2yrs. Echoing Spoiltforchoice comments it's critical to use the proper lubricants and cleaners and cleaning/replacing filters when needed. A dusty environment is not good. Make time and create a maintenance program (based off the manual) that covers daily, weekly and monthly tasks and along with a dust-free environment it will pay big dividends for trouble-free operation. We have had no instance of down time with either machine. Some of the major influences for us deciding on Samsung is their excellent support whether in-warranty or out of warranty and the user friendliness of their software.

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#80507

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 6 June, 2018

We use independant engineers to service our older kit - all with long service careers with the appropriate manufacturers.

The manufacturers we deal with tend to have younger engineers who do not know older machines. There are exceptions, in that there are a couple of distributors with very good engineers, but it works for us.

We are very tight on maintenance and servicing.

I have 5 x 50,000 + hour machines that run 3 shifts, 5 days per week in one area and our down time is negligable. All 30 SMT machines we have calibrate on the button.

We have a 1998 Sapphire with a fixed feeder setup placing over 400,000 parts per day, trouble free.

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#80508

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 6 June, 2018

Samsung charges $5,000/year to keep a machine under warranty. I thought that was too high. The SM320/SM482 are on my wish list but annual maintenance contract & support are pushing me off.

Definetly heeding your advice for dust free enviornment.

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#80509

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 6 June, 2018

Which machines do you use? I like the idea of not being married to the manufacturer.

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#80510

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 6 June, 2018

Take a look at Essemtec's newest line up of Pick and place FOX & PUMA.... Linear motors, mineral cast frames, easy to use powerful software

www.essemtec-usa.com

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#80517

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 7 June, 2018

If you are a good mechanic they are all Toyotas. Pick one that has at least free phone support. Take all the necessary training or include them in your machine deal. I had UIC, Juki, Fuji, Siemens, Mydata ....and some other European brands. All of them great machines, if you know what you are doing. I personally never used any of the maintenance contracts and kept them going myself.

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#80521

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 8 June, 2018

Hi Reckless, we use Yamaha built Philips & Assembleon, and Juki.

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#80524

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 8 June, 2018

We have Samsung/Hanwha little to no maintenance. we are in the USA and they do not charge $5000 as a yearly maintenance fee. our machines came with a 2 year warranty covered just about everything. You can pay for an extended warranty which we do not do. Very little ever breaks on them so we do not worry about it.

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#80530

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 10 June, 2018

You guys have started convincing me to look into newer machines. What machines get 40,000-60,000+ cph for under $100k? I prefer used machines. I don't think I like Universal Instruments due to how they change parts constantly in one model. I prefer japanese models with Juki's thinking of lowest total cost of ownership.

It seems like most of the machines by major manufacturers for last few years have started to getting into those speeds.

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#80531

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 11 June, 2018

There are no new machines for under a 100k that will do 40,000 to 60,000 you are looking at over 250,000 dollars with feeders for a new machine.

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#80555

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 15 June, 2018

I have been eyeing Samsung newer machines. They are claiming 55-90k cph on their chipshooters. Is that accurate? It also mentions they can handle QFNs.

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#80557

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 15 June, 2018

Full disclosure We use Samsung/Hanwha machines we like them so I am a little biased. There machine can place just about anything so that is not an issue. For there dual head machine the real number is closer to 40k but that depends on layout etc. all the manufactures stated speeds are on the hi end. Hanwha for the price is a good machine but those machines start at 250K ballpark but you need to check with them our last new machine was bought a little over a year ago.

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#80558

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 15 June, 2018

What about their dual gantry 10 head chip shooter machines? They seem to be going around $50-60k used.

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#80563

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 15 June, 2018

We have the sm481 10 head it runs about 20k per hour we are i n the USA if that machine is used for 50 to 60k it probably in bad shape or if it is from offshore you buy at your own risk.

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#80566

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 16 June, 2018

20k doesn't sound that great to me. SM481plus is rated for 40k according to brochure. How fast do the chip shooters go?

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#81321

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 29 October, 2018

Rob, I tried looking up information on google about assembleon sapphires and not finding anything. Do you recommend sapphire for a cheap older chip shooter? My smallest part is a 32pin QFN and 0402.

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#81324

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 29 October, 2018

Hi Reckless,

If it's a Standard Phillips Sapphire then no, they are not a beginner machine. The feeders have to be spot on and the machine requires a much longer service as they have 2 sets of 12 heads. Spares will start becoming harder to get soon too. We also only trust one or two people to service ours. Wouldn't put a QFN down with one either. It would do it but you'd have to slow it down too much.

The Sapphire X2 is a completely different beast and uses 2 of the Topaz Xii heads, but they are quite rare. Nice machine though.

I think you would be better off with 2 x Topaz X's or Xii's as they are more common and can place most things, and won't scare the local service engineer.

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#81325

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 29 October, 2018

Rob, even for $3k guaranteed working, 20k hours? I want nicer equipment but I hate paying extra for it.

I do have a full time Panasonic SMT tech from the 90s who handles the machines.

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#81326

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 29 October, 2018

That's a good price with low hours. It's cheaper than an annual service.

If handled correctly, with new copy Chinese feeders ($50 USD each), and good copy nozzles, and fixed set ups you should get a lot of use out of it. Personally I'd want someone who knows them inside out working on it though as it is a tricky machine. I'd pay to get your tech trained for the first service, and just pay for annual calibration.

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#81327

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 29 October, 2018

I agree. Not sure what type of support there is on old machines. I was confused as the GEM machines were manufactured by Yamaha.

Is there any issue with it being a DOS based machine? We are only running 1-2 main boards so no changeovers.

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#81328

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 30 October, 2018

No issues with the OS, it is called VIOS.

Good spares support from China, also should be good USA support as there are a fair few machines there. Assembleon has a website for USA spares, including a lot of the old Yamaha machines.

Personally, I would find who has done previous services and calibration on the machine and get them in for a week to setup, service, calibrate, create your 2 programs and run them with you.

If you go down this path, before hand buy a set of new copy feeders and nozzles from QYSMT, so you are ready to run with known good everything (24 heads remember) and multiple reels so that you can gang pick. Also if you can stretch to it pick up a cheap Emerald do do the QFNs and other big parts you may come across.

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#81329

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 30 October, 2018

I dont have any big parts but im worried about your comment regarding QFN. Currently hunting someone for setup/training. Personally, I dont like 2 head systems but need reliable chip shooters.

QYSMT only has used feeders currently as they are old.

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#81332

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 30 October, 2018

Have you emailed them? They sell new copy CL feeders. If not then there is also sales3@py-smt.com should be about $50 USD per 8mm feeder, and under $15 per nozzle.

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#81333

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 30 October, 2018

The speed of the line is really not your machine spec on the brochure. You can produce so much more boards with stable reliable equipment and optimized process than you can do with the fastest machine out there. I have seen super fast lines stopping all the time for different reasons. The knowledge of the equipment and you lean technique will determine your throughput.

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#81334

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 30 October, 2018

It is always an enticing thing to watch high speed machines planting parts lickity split. We are a small shop doing experimental and short runs, and have been running our dear old Mydata TP9-2U for years. No repairs, never failed because we have always maintained it well. Reps coming in trying to sell new machines, point and laugh, and yet the TP9 chugs along. We dont push the machine at all (120 days total on time!) because of what we do, but by golly its Friday night, a client has changed something and boards need to be produced. And they are. It is not a question of whether a fancy-schmancy multi-nozzle device has to stop working. The TP9 always works, and from simple electromechanical insight you can solve hiccups etc. We are adding a new machine soon, but it will always be compared to the TP-92U running beside it. So yes, something simple but well built not only has value but can have the advantage as well.

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#81388

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 7 November, 2018

Why do you not feel comfortable doing a 5mm QFN on this machine? I didn't think that was considered big?

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#81389

Pick & Place Machine Life Cycle | 7 November, 2018

Hi Reckless,

I'd feel uncomfortable placing that part as I've only ever used Sapphires as chipshooters and LED placers, not that I don't believe it can't do it, I just haven't personally done it on that machine. We always had multi machine lines. I changed company recently with a different platform so I can't go and try it either.

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