AP 25Hie

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Hi, We maybe buy a MPM AP25hie, and the guy who sold th... - Jan 12, 2004 by karkanov

You don't want dedicated tooling. Make sure your machine com... - Jan 12, 2004 by Fastek

I have to disagree with Fastek. We only use dedicated to... - Jan 13, 2004 by Sr. Tech

I agree with Fastek. Universal tooling is the way to go if ... - Jan 13, 2004 by

Dedicated tooling uses what MPM calls an "H" tower. You moun... - Jan 13, 2004 by PeteC

If I may clarify something as to not give the wrong idea. As... - Jan 13, 2004 by Fastek

karkanov

#26830

AP 25Hie | 12 January, 2004

Hi,

We maybe buy a MPM AP25hie, and the guy who sold the printer told me about a Dedicated tooling and a Universal Tooling...I not quiet sur of what is that, can someone explain it to me and what is the best option.

Just for fun are you ready to buy this kind of printer year 2000, 2d vision, vacuum under stencil wipe, auto paste dispense for 45k?

Thanks you

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Fastek

#26833

AP 25Hie | 12 January, 2004

You don't want dedicated tooling. Make sure your machine comes with front and rear dams and plenty of side chucks and magnetic support pins. The best option for these machines is the side snugger option but it doesn't sound like your machine has that option. It's about $5K to buy that from MPM. Your price seems a bit low for a 2000 model. Have you inspected the machine to make sure it is complete and operational? Do you completely trust who you are dealing with? Be aware there is a lot of flat out stealing going on lately in this business. I know of at least 3 or 4 situations lately where so-called "dealers" are accepting money from buyers and not providing the equipment. Be smart and don't let this happen to you.

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Sr. Tech

#26853

AP 25Hie | 13 January, 2004

I have to disagree with Fastek. We only use dedicated tooling on our AP machines.

Dedicated tooling pros: *Set up time is 90%+ faster than universal tooling. *It is very easy to train operators to install dedicated support plates. *You do not need to put support pins under the boards and risk the chance of damaging second side components.

Dedicated tooling cons:You have to have the board support plates made.(Initial cost is more but it is made up with set up efficiency, and less risk of rework)

I would not recommend universal tooling because: 1. It is difficult to train operators on proper set up. 2. Takes too long to set up. 3. You run the chance of damaging second side components if the support pins are not placed just right.

This is my view.

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Tom B

#26870

AP 25Hie | 13 January, 2004

I agree with Fastek. Universal tooling is the way to go if you got high changeover. Another option is Grid Loks support system (http://www.grid-lok.com/) Basically remove the ztower and add this system. It'll cost ya about 10K.

Get board snuggers, it'll save alot of headaches from board shifts, (if ya got a board with a lot of routing the vacuum pull down won't do you much good).

Look over machine really good, check the platen and forcers to ensure there is no solder paste contamination or deep scratches (gouges), this can be major problems! Look in bottom of machine for paste droppings, check conveyor belts for damage too!

For price, it sounds about right, I got a 2000 machine last year for Low 40's. Even had it re-painted and new Plex covers installed. It pays to know where your getting the equipment from!

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PeteC

#26871

AP 25Hie | 13 January, 2004

Dedicated tooling uses what MPM calls an "H" tower. You mount the board support plate (dedicated tooling) on top of the H tower. If boards are only single-sided SMT, meaning only components on one side, the board support plate is flat with vacuum holes. If double-sided SMT the board support plate is machined "dedicated" to that board or family of boards. Dedicated support plates are made of aluminum and machined with an end-milling machine such as Bridgeport. You mill out cavities to clear the existing SMT components soldered in place from the first print-place-solder process. Vacuum holes are then drilled into regions. Universal Tooling on the other hand consists of plates and dams to make a vacuum box based on the PCB size. Board support pins with magnetic bases are then positioned to support the board in areas where there are no components. Both systems above require vacuum to hold the PCB in place. Snugger Tooling was developed by MPM to do away with vacuum. "Y Snugger Tooling" option is required to hold the PCB without vacuum. Y Snugger�s grip the PCB and firmly hold it in place. X Snugger tooling only contacts the edge of the board and are not robust enough to hold the PCB firmly. With Y Snugger Tooling option you can use manually placed individual support pins with magnetic bases, a homemade support pin plate or one of the fine systems being offered by third-party vendors such as by the fellow posting here. The bad news is that MPM will not field retrofit Y Snugger Tooling. It is a major operation and is cost prohibitive to a customer. If you don't want to deal with vacuum, the best bet is to find a machine with Y Snugger Tooling option already on it or contact Speedline Tech- MPM about a refurb'd UP1500 or AccuFlex machine. The UP1500/AccuFlex machines have over-the-top board clamps and have an automatic support pin placement system or the new Gel-Flex board support system. Refurb'd UP1500s are going for great prices. http://www.speedlinetech.com Good Luck!

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Fastek

#26884

AP 25Hie | 13 January, 2004

If I may clarify something as to not give the wrong idea. As a used equipment dealer my focus is on the cost of ownership only for myself and the buyer at the entry point. I was assuming (perhaps incorrectly) from the gentleman's statement that the machine he is purchasing used is equipped with dedicated tooling. Well that is a useless feature for him as none of the tooling that the previous owner was utilizing will work for his application. He will have to spend additional dollars immediately to be able to run his first board. In my mind if he buys one of these printers without tooling that he can use right away it would be like buying a car without tires on it. If he can get the universal tooling included with the machine at least he can start up his production with no additional costs. Of course depending on the complexity of his products and his budget, dedicated tooling is probably the better way to go as you stated. But as Pete points out there are even better ways to go than with a dedicated set-up. There are too many factors involved for one method to be the final answer in what I would call a process decision.

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