Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.

SMTnet
»
Electronics Forum
»
Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components

Subscribe to Thread

Dear Forumites, It's been a while, but I have a question. ... - May 05, 2016 by Darby

Not sure what you mean. 0201's and 0402's are both on 8m... - May 05, 2016 by Sr. Tech

Thanks Sr. If you have zero tolerance for simul pick up in ... - May 05, 2016 by Darby

Darby, I'm not completely sure I understand. Juki machin... - May 06, 2016 by Sr. Tech

We have Samsung and havehad no problems with simultaneous p... - May 06, 2016 by KaHrpr

Sorry for delay - been flat out. Sr - I understand what you... - May 12, 2016 by Darby

Located in Shenzhen China, the Silicon Valley of hardware, A... - May 19, 2016 by jpcwg

Darby

#75657

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components | 5 May, 2016

Dear Forumites, It's been a while, but I have a question. I was recently asked to provide a scenario on capacity if we retired two older lines and replaced with a new line.

My capacity figures were based on real time production over a period of six months on various line configurations. I have been using these figures for twenty years at this facility and they are historically fairly accurate.

After forwarding the figures to management, a brown dog told me that we would be implementing 0402 and 0201 components. You can't kill a brown dog. My current capacity figures are based on 0603+ with a smattering of 0402 so a great deal of the pick up sequences are simultaneous.

What is your experience across a variety of machines in regards to my assumptions on simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201. Am I correct in believing that with 0201, feeder positions will have to be taught and with a zero simultaneous pick up permission that all cycles will be sequential due to head offsets etc. which will increase the cycle times,(perhaps significantly), from my predictions.

Am I also correct that this is correct in regards to 0402 – especially after a period of time when the feeders begin to shift the Y offset due to wear and tear. This has been apparent in our own operations.

A penny for your thoughts and experiences....

reply »

Sr. Tech

#75659

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components | 5 May, 2016

Not sure what you mean.

0201's and 0402's are both on 8mm feeders.

Juki's will do simultaneous picks an all 8mm feeders no matter the component size.

Your feeders need to be maintenanced and calibrated to reliably pick 0402's and 0201's.

I have old Fuji CP feeders that have millions and millions of cycles and them and they calibrate to factory spec.

reply »

Darby

#75661

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components | 5 May, 2016

Thanks Sr. If you have zero tolerance for simul pick up in your component files then you will not have simul pick up due to variances in your head offsets. So you are saying that on your Juki you run a tolerance for 0201? All other head positions at simul pick are determined by the first head in the sequence.Any variations in head offset or physical feeder position will result in pick up offsets.

I understand you point about feeder calibration but at this stage the Samsung,(now known as Hanwha) SM & SME series have to be returned to Korea for calibration...... The machines I'm referring to here are Samsung SM321, 481 and 482. They're not bad kit. I'm running a few tests but I wanted some feedback from the real world and not promises from agents.

reply »

Sr. Tech

#75665

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components | 6 May, 2016

Darby, I'm not completely sure I understand.

Juki machines have what is referred to as a multi-head. The offsets between the heads are the same as the spacing between 8mm feeders. So the (6) heads all come down at once and "gang pick" from 6 8mm feeders.

There is no variance in head offsets. That is a static position unless something gets crashed or is worn out.

Im not sure how your Samsung machines work but you can teach the X-Y-Z position of the Juki feeders. Once that is taught, the parts are indexed very accurately each time the feeder is advanced.

On 0402-0201 components, it is absolutely necessary to have feeders that are calibrated and in sound condition.

I do not think it is common practice to have to send feeders back to the manufacturer for calibration. You should be able to do it yourself.

reply »

KaHrpr

#75666

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components | 6 May, 2016

We have Samsung and havehad no problems with simultaneous pick ups with 201s 0r 402s. the feeders are durable and do not need much repair especially the sm feeders. The SME feeders have not been out as long so we will see so far so good. As with all feeders they need to be in good working condition and occasionally need calibrated. The SM are relatively easy to do yourself its all mechanical. If you do not want to send your SME feeders out you can get the jig from Samsung to do it yourself. We have had a few feeders go bad but have not seen an issue with them going out of calibration. If you got a lot of really old feeder with millions of cycles on them they can get worn out. we have some of them they just do not get used on 201s We could fix them but its is a time issue not enough of it.If you are in the US contact the Samsung guys they are always very helpful.

reply »

Darby

#75709

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components | 12 May, 2016

Sorry for delay - been flat out. Sr - I understand what you are saying. My concern is that combined with the head offsets and variations in pick points (i.e. having to teach feeder positions for very slight amounts like 0.05mm)then you cycle times will increase. You Juki machine will have head offsets. In modern machines these are typically less than than 0.02mm in either X or Y. That's a very small amount, but as feeders get older and operators get desperate these tolerances tend to decrease, (or is it increase?), over time. Slowly, slowly, slowly over a few months you will find that adjustments from operators will slow your program. teach a feeder, increase a pick up or placement time, slow down an axis...they're just doing there job and trying to build a quality product. But that's the real world. Personally, I don't give a tinker's cuss about cycle times unless it gets ridiculous. I'm more concerned about job satisfaction and rework - they can cost you big money, but beano types tend to get hung up on throughput. It's like PM - they can't put a value on it. Ka - thanks for the info - I hope it goes as you say.

Cheers all. Darby.

reply »

jpcwg

#75752

Simultaneous pick up with 0402 and 0201 components | 19 May, 2016

Located in Shenzhen China, the Silicon Valley of hardware, ALLPCB.com is a company specialized and experienced in manufacturing printed circuit boards of prototyping and low volume production. Through the years thousands of business customers and even more makers and hobbyists have selected us to be the one-stop destination for all their PCB needs. We have customers spreading over 66 countries. http://www.allpcb.com/

reply »