Printed Circuit Board Assembly & PCB Design Forum

SMT electronics assembly manufacturing forum.

SMTnet
»
Electronics Forum
»
BGA inspection microscope

BGA inspection microscope

Subscribe to Thread

Hi, We are looking for a BGA inspection microscope. We had... - Dec 01, 2005 by

Try: * Caltex [www.bgascope.com] "Hirox" scope * ERSA [www... - Dec 01, 2005 by davef

Hi, I have always wondered about these scopes and are the... - Dec 02, 2005 by Grant

Get a demonstration, on most packages these systems can see ... - Dec 02, 2005 by Steve

We have both Ersa scope and X-Ray. Everyone uses the X-ray ... - Dec 02, 2005 by URL

Thanks for your replies. We had looked at a microscope bu... - Dec 02, 2005 by

What is the quality worth to You? How much is "to much" for... - Dec 02, 2005 by

I would look at the SMT Tools BGA-100 scope this is by far t... - Dec 02, 2005 by Gary

Hi, I have seen demos of these scopes, and don't think th... - Dec 03, 2005 by Grant

Thats because Glenbrook Reps both. The Ersascope was the ori... - Dec 06, 2005 by Steve

Steve, You are correct in that X-Ray image of a BGA will ... - Dec 06, 2005 by

There are quite a lot out there now: ... - Dec 06, 2005 by PeteC

Mike You are my hero. A real world person. ... - Dec 06, 2005 by Gary

Look when it comes down to it. The Mini Micro Stencil Mini ... - Dec 06, 2005 by Gary

Hi, That's my thoughts, and I just don't know what lookin... - Dec 08, 2005 by Grant

Bought the Metcal scope. Rarely use it. Never have any issue... - Dec 12, 2005 by John Burris

right again grant, consider the fact that if you spend enoug... - Dec 14, 2005 by snaggletooth

I almost forgot to ask You: what is the purpose of the BGA i... - Dec 14, 2005 by snaggletooth

We have a version of the SMT Tools scope. We use it hand hel... - Dec 14, 2005 by jdumont

Hi, Wow, that's cheap. I did not know they were available... - Dec 14, 2005 by Grant

I have never seen the image quality on the Ersa but the SMT ... - Dec 15, 2005 by jdumont

We have a handheld SMT tools scope. Its fine for spot checki... - Dec 15, 2005 by

IRAS

#38177

BGA inspection microscope | 1 December, 2005

Hi, We are looking for a BGA inspection microscope. We had looked at one with a prism method trying to found a vendor for a fiber optic scope. I'm not sure which one is best.

Any recommendation and suggestion would be appreciated.

Thanks. IRAS

This message was posted via the Electronics Forum @

reply »

davef

#38179

BGA inspection microscope | 1 December, 2005

Try: * Caltex [www.bgascope.com] "Hirox" scope * ERSA [www.ersa.de] Ersascope

reply »

Grant

#38182

BGA inspection microscope | 2 December, 2005

Hi,

I have always wondered about these scopes and are they any good?

They seem expensive when you consider you really only see the outside balls, and with small lead-less parts becoming more common, would the money be better spent on a good X-Ray?

Regards,

Grant

reply »

Steve

#38183

BGA inspection microscope | 2 December, 2005

Get a demonstration, on most packages these systems can see down a row. You don't see solder flux residue with X-Ray. You don't see the intermettalic bond with x-ray. They are some what expensive but together with X-ray you have an excellent quality system.

reply »

URL

#38187

BGA inspection microscope | 2 December, 2005

We have both Ersa scope and X-Ray. Everyone uses the X-ray because it's a quick way to check for shorts, which seems to be the line supervisors only concern when it comes to BGAs. The Ersa is fine, but it's only real use is to examine a couple of rows in. Plus, it does take a bit more time to set-up and inspect. It is a good tool for those who know what they are looking for.

reply »

IRAS

#38192

BGA inspection microscope | 2 December, 2005

Thanks for your replies.

We had looked at a microscope but it wasn't able to get a clear look at the middle solder bumps. I was just wondering if there is a microscope out there that would have that capability, or is that the best it gets.

This message was posted via the Electronics Forum @

reply »

Ola

#38195

BGA inspection microscope | 2 December, 2005

What is the quality worth to You? How much is "to much" for You to spend on a good quality ckeck? How much benefit can You get in return, If You in the first place get the processes straight? These are the main questions that You have to answer Yourself.

A good inspection system; like AOI, X-Ray, Optical, manual/visual, (or even ICT) etc. is Not the solution to Your process problems, but a way to get information or at least get a hint on where to start search for Your process problem.

This inspection feedback is only valuable if You get it in a such matter so that You actually can benefit from it. For ex. where to start trouble shoot the real process problems. In a perfect world You won't need such a "after check system" right? You see, all different methods are good in some way, but not complete in their own. So a combination in most cases, depending on what exactly You are looking for is the best. Back to Your original qestion: I recommend Ersascope and I have no relationship or what so ever with the company.

I almost forgot to ask You: what is the purpose of the BGA inspection microscope? Perhaps we tell You stories that You alraedy know about... /

reply »

Gary

#38197

BGA inspection microscope | 2 December, 2005

I would look at the SMT Tools BGA-100 scope this is by far the most cost effective tool for the money. We use it in conjunction with our Glenbrook X-ray and get great results.

Gary

reply »

Grant

#38204

BGA inspection microscope | 3 December, 2005

Hi,

I have seen demos of these scopes, and don't think they really show you very much. If you profile your board right, and drill up to solder a thermocouple onto the inner balls of the device so you really know your getting a good profile, I don't know how you can actually get a bad solder joint on a BGA. They are pretty easy to solder.

The problem I see for BGA inspection is if you get a paste release problem randomly, and you have a board that does not work. That's where you need to see if you have all the balls soldered, and X-ray is the only way to do that.

But apart from that, I don't know what kind of info these inspection microscopes give you that can help in the process development for a product that uses BGA components. It can be nice to "look" at the balls, but it does not provide much information that is useful.

You can also see the balls with your eyes, or a magnifying glass if your careful to see if you have the balls collapsed correctly. However if your using an optical inspection method, this is not as accurate as a thermal profile, and a profiler us much more accurate for all products than an optical scope.

So if someone has a good use for these scopes in your process development, it would be cool to know what it is.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

Steve

#38250

BGA inspection microscope | 6 December, 2005

Thats because Glenbrook Reps both. The Ersascope was the original and still is the best bang for the buck. How do you know if you have flux residue under the bga without seeing it. Show me an xray system that can see flux residue? Again, this is a PROCESS TOOL. It doesn't correct anything. Why do you have microscopes? X-Ray? AOI? to keep your process in control. The Ersascope aids in doing just that. All of the Major CM's have an inspection scope. If you don't see the value then you may want to re-examine your value to your company.

reply »

Mike

#38252

BGA inspection microscope | 6 December, 2005

Steve,

You are correct in that X-Ray image of a BGA will not show flux residue. So what? If you are using no clean flux then I would think it doesn't matter if there is some flux residue. Sure if you are reworking a BGA and the operator dumps too much flux on the pads there will be some residue. Additional, it seems a tedious process trying to inspect all of the spheres on a 500+ ball BGA. That brings up another point, it is not easy and sometimes not possible to inspect inner/center rows of a BGA. To me, the Ersascope is a good toy to have if you have money to burn. It offers some additional inspection capability over X-Ray but it is by no means a substitute for X-ray.

You can easily get by without the Ersascope/optical inspection however, it is not a necessity like X-Ray, AOI, microscope.

BTW, all major CM's have equipment that many of us out there don't have. It does not mean that they build better product or have better process control. It certainly does not mean we should run out and get what the CM buys. I can tell you lots of stories how this expensive equipment collects dust at the major CM's facility. When your annual revenue is in the hundreds of million and several billion, whats 30 or 40K here and there.

reply »

PeteC

#38253

BGA inspection microscope | 6 December, 2005

There are quite a lot out there now:

http://www.sapltd.co.uk/electronic_production/bga_scope/bga_scope.htm

http://www.ocwhite.com/bga/

http://www.hirox-usa.com/bga.html

http://www.jergensinc.com/infodir/catalog_asg.asp?GroupNum=175

http://www.smttools.com/bga100.html

http://www.huntron.com/products/optilia/optilia-problems.htm

reply »

Gary

#38258

BGA inspection microscope | 6 December, 2005

Mike You are my hero. A real world person.

reply »

Gary

#38259

BGA inspection microscope | 6 December, 2005

Look when it comes down to it. The Mini Micro Stencil Mini Mirror for $40.00 beats all and is the most cost effective inspection tool out there.

reply »

Grant

#38288

BGA inspection microscope | 8 December, 2005

Hi,

That's my thoughts, and I just don't know what looking at the component will do for the process. I did not know anyone used anything other than no clean flux these days.

If you have the money, then the scope would be fun, but my main point is spend the money on Xray first, as the scope is a poor solution for inspection if you don't have xray, and won't make up for no xray.

As for my value to my company, I own it so it's my money I am spending, and it's amazing how many people just want to buy all kinds of crap without any clear analysis on what improvement for the customer will result.

Anything not adding value to the customer just adds waste to the process, and increases cost. Then the same people complain about the factories moving to china. There is more to lowering costs that just hiring cheap people, and the engineering staff need to ensure they don't get involved in such an equpment buying frenzy that overall costs become high, and then suddenly you find your operations are not competitive.

I don't think our main costs is staff, it's capital equpment purchases. So I think it's very important to ensure each purchase is adding real value to the process, and pays for itself.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

John Burris

#38400

BGA inspection microscope | 12 December, 2005

Bought the Metcal scope. Rarely use it. Never have any issues with BGA. Prove out your process and unless you change something, it will collect dust. I know.

This message was posted via the Electronics Forum @

reply »

snaggletooth

#38445

BGA inspection microscope | 14 December, 2005

right again grant, consider the fact that if you spend enough time inspecting the soldered boards/pre-oven and check the BGA solder paste pads before, and clean the stencil regularly and check solder paste dryness, check oven profiles then after checking maybe the first finished board for placement and solder quality, then you quality should be quite good. Preventing a problem is better than curing it after.....

reply »

snaggletooth

#38446

BGA inspection microscope | 14 December, 2005

I almost forgot to ask You: what is the purpose of the BGA inspection microscope? Perhaps we tell You stories that You alraedy know about... the ersascope we have is there to look funny and prove to the customer that we can check if we want too, but as we have had no problems with this the alien looking ersascope pretty much sits there getting used maybe once a month at a cost of 10,000 euro including the pointless P4 computer but i can take nice pictures wih it for my prototypes and send them to the customer..... but not much else i think the processes before this stage are much more important

reply »

jdumont

#38448

BGA inspection microscope | 14 December, 2005

We have a version of the SMT Tools scope. We use it hand held style with no stand (much easier). We also find that it is not used very often. XRay and a reliable process are more important to spend the time and money on. This is a good tool to have for those times when you really need a quick peak underneath but not necessary for everyday use we find. If I had to do it all over again I would still buy the same scope I have which is prob also the cheapest. I think we paid around $2000 for ours and it works great.

reply »

Grant

#38465

BGA inspection microscope | 14 December, 2005

Hi,

Wow, that's cheap. I did not know they were available that low cost, and we had been quoted much higher for the Ursa scope, so that's why I thought why bother, and lets put it into xray.

I bet Superman would have a terrible time working in an SMT plant, as he would see all the defects, and become frustrated all the time.

Regards,

Grant

reply »

jdumont

#38497

BGA inspection microscope | 15 December, 2005

I have never seen the image quality on the Ersa but the SMT Tools scope we have is definately good enough for spot checks. I have it hooked into my laptop to capture images which works ok.

reply »

John

#38498

BGA inspection microscope | 15 December, 2005

We have a handheld SMT tools scope. Its fine for spot checking we paid 3 grand for it.

reply »